The million-dollar question.
All right, no one’s going to get a million dollars off this, but considering where our comment count is, someone could get that copy of Velvet Goldmine that’s going for the 3,000th comment. The question:
Why are lesbian and bisexual women so into gay porn? Granted, generally not the hardcore stuff; it’s more written, or artwork, or even artistic photographs. (I’m not even into the hardcore stuff; porn just makes me giggle. Those faces they make…gods, I hope I don’t look that stupid during sex.) I kind of get it when it’s straight women; it’s the (more tasteful) equivalent of straight men getting their rocks off on lesbian porn, without the drool, grunting, and inevitable need for a wet wipe.
I’m not censuring; I’m just curious, and I’m interested in hearing you talk about your interests, why, what appeals to you, without feeling the need to defend yourself. It’s just something outside the realm of my experience; as a gay man I’m not so into lesbians or yuri fic/art/etc., so the rather large population of lesbians and bisexual women in the yaoi/shounen ai/slash community just baffles me. Since this is something I have no clue about, educate me. Be as honest and detailed as you want. If you’re not particularly interested in the attachments (or at least not interested in letting them anywhere near you, and you know, some days and with some guys I really can’t blame you), why is the erotic aspect of two men together so fascinating? Hell, if you straight or asexual girls want to throw in your perspective, too, knock yourselves out. Any story that’s worth telling is worth hearing.
This has been your “god I need sleep” post for the day.
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April 18th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Well, I’m a bisexual man, but I’ve seen this topic brought up before. I tend to think that a lot of it has to do with media portrayl of women. Often you get unlikable female stereotypes, who are then shoe-horned into specific “romantic interest” roles, which can be predictable and boring, and often extremely forced. Male characters are traditionally written with more character/depth and detail, by comparison. And, most often, you’ll get one or two females to five or six men in a cast of a show. (Take Star Trek for instance: you just had Uhura, and on occasion, Nurse Chapel. So if you wanted a reoccurring love interest for Kirk, your pool is very limited–unless you open it up to the men, as well.) On top of that, Kirk and Uhura’s canonical, on-screen intereaction/chemistrry does not remotely compare to Kirk’s onscreen actions with Spock. So, to that end, it’s a natural progression of events, to me.
It is worth noting that shows that are largely female driven (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for instance) have an extremely high level of femslash written about them. It’s just that most shows don’t have two or more strong/interesting/well written women to pair together.
So, you take these dynamics, and then you see the way that these women fans (often, but not always) feminize the men to fit their preferences. So many make a BIG DEAL of who tops and who bottoms–who plays the “Female” role. Once they do that, they can identify with the “catcher” so to speak. And if you’re a certain kind of lesbian, I imagine you can identity with a man at least in some regard.
Anyway, I know lots of gay men who adore het porn/romance stories, so it does go both ways, I think. I wouldn’t like hardcore lesbian porn, but a story about two female characters I like falling in love and having sex during that time would be fine with me. (To use Buffy again, Willow/Tara, for example.)
April 18th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
I can understand the het stories thing, as I have a horrible weakness for any well-written heterosexual romance novels (and even a few of the cheesy bodice-rippers, when I want a good snicker or I’m feeling a little Scarlett-ish). But that’s a pretty interesting perspective, overall.
April 18th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I don’t know if I can say why exactly that I find it hot. I didn’t even realize I did until Queer as Folk came along, and I feel in lust with a number of the boys on there. Oh yes indeedy.
I think if I had to really narrow it down to something, I’d say that it’s more raw, powerful, then lesbian or hetero porn. Being surrounded by strong macho manly men who are so homophobic they won’t even touch themselves tips my perspective a bit too. It makes me respect the fact that two men (or yes, more) have the strength and nerve to scream they’re here, queer, and proud.
I also find it more sensual in a way - it’s more… I dunno. Real. Lesbian porn is so fake so many times, same with straight porn. Men are just - you know, men. (duh, Lessa.) I dunno. They don’t fake it. You can tell when a man is into someone - no matter the sex. You can tell when he really cares for somoene, and I think that gay porn showcases that better then straight/lesbian porn.
Or I’m watching the WRONG porn. Or something. Hahaha!
I haven’t slept much this week - so um. yeah. I’m sure that makes exactly ZERO sense.
April 18th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I’m not sure my answer is normal or not, but for me it’s the romance aspect? Men in the States are supposed to be macho and manly and stupid, everything the stereotypical guy American male should be. So when you have two guys falling in love with each other, it sort of breaks all of those boundaries set by my culture, and that makes it both unreal and beautiful. Because it has to be a sort of true love, right? Since it breaks all those “natural” rules and ingrained tendencies.
I don’t actually believe in love or romance in the real world, I think it’s silly and pointless. And I think sex is undignified and weird. But I’m the first to admit I’m strange and unusual and that there’s probably something wrong with me. However, in fiction, especially well written fiction, anything is possible, and things that break boundaries for some reason make everything more…just more for me. If any of that makes sense.
That, and all the romance novels I read in high school probably het’d me out. Though I’ll still enjoy the odd well written one with an actual plot on occaision. M/M -especially the female preference to pair straight men - just gives it a more romantic boost. *sigh* I wish I were as good as you at words, Adri. ~can’t express self properly~
April 18th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Eh. I kind of agree with Van, there.
Dominant women in stories are either B’s or literally doms - strong women are not penned in stories as just women. Even the stories where the woman has promise, there happens some moment where the woman turns into this weak-kneed princess who suddenly has to be rescued for some obscure reason by The Man (even if he’s *never* useful for anything other than sex for the rest of the book, there is that one moment of White Knight Syndrome). Or, if they are like in you-know-who’s universes, they tend to be the center of several men in an orgy, as if a single man isn’t strong enough or capable enough to be her partner - and then she’s sex-starved and so much stronger than the Men because she can have as much sex as she wants and they need a recharge time. That’s less about the sex (for most) and more about the power, which in truth the average man does *not* handle well.
In any case, the modern woman is very rarely written as she really is in stories. More and more successful women today cannot find men who are willing to “let” the women be the breadwinner or the more educated/successful/wtfever. Even highly successful men are less likely to attach themselves to similarly successful women. This, of course, does not lend itself well to romance.
It is, frankly, more acceptable to read and write gay porn than it is to write porn or stories with a strong woman in a loving (non-dom) relationship with a man who is strong enough to fulfill a role outside of Plot What Plot? stories. I think straight/bi/lesbian women are simply drawn to the person who can be who and what they want, and that despite/because of being who they want to be, they still find a loving (or at least intensely orgasmic and satisfying) relationship. It is easier and more accepted for a man to do and have than it is for a woman. It doesn’t matter if there is a top/bottom/whatever so much as the two personalities can be who they want and still find a loving relationship, because the reader can relate to that as something they want. It is, after all, the ultimate romance (something women, no matter how gruff or rough, like). It just simply doesn’t matter that the two characters are men, because they don’t get those stories from hetsex stories. It’s fantasy anyway, and mary sue-ing will be just that in absolutely *any* situation that pleases the reader.
*shrug* check Juxtaposefantasy.net. The writer did an interview once where she talked about this (ermph, I’m not sure it’s still there but she’d probably provide the link to a recording if you requested it of her), and she admitted that most of her readers were women, not men. She sort of theorized on why, though I seem to recall that the radio DJs cut her off once or twice while she’s trying to explain it.
April 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I talked about this with a (gay) friend of mine a couple of days ago, actually.
He’s FtM and he loves gay stuff, has no objection to lesbian stuff, but het stuff groses him out.
This kind of confirmed what I already thought.
I’ll take myself as an example:
I like het stuff. I can identify with it easily, it makes me dream about what it could be like, shows me other ways of living life, and I’m a sucker for romance. A well written story can make me happy (and excited) for days. (I theorise that my transgendered friend gets queezy from het
because he is naturally attracted to the male partner, which would automatically cause him to try and identify him with the female partner, but since he’s stuck in a female body this causes a really heavy reaction of DO NOT WANT)
I like gay stuff (I keep saying stuff because the line between stories, smut and porn can be quite thin sometimes; also, I mostly read, I rarely look). Both partners are atractive to me (most of the time) and that makes it hot. Again, I’m a sucker for romance and a well-written love story will make me melt no matter who’s in it. But two guys is very attractive to me. (same thing goes for my friend)
I also like lesbian stuff, but only if the plot is good. This because I’m not naturally attracted to any of the partners, and I will probably only be able to identify with one of the two. This makes it less gratuitous; the story will have to be engaging,the picture will have to be beautiful. Not more so than for het or gay stuff, but here it is the primary objective, while in het or gay stuff I might just want a hot read or a beautiful view on occasion. (same thing goes for my friend)
So I think that lesbian women will read gay fiction because it is well written, or because it has a plot they can relate to (after all gay men will often run in to the same problems they might have had.)
My two cents =)
April 19th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Well, you did ask for opinions of women on the appeal of gay porn…but I can’t answer that, so I’ll answer about guys and lesbian porn. And in my case, I don’t like it. Maybe I’ve just been watching the wrong porn, but it doesn’t do anything for me. Granted, I identify gay…but that’s not from lack of enjoyment in the vajayjay. Hell, I love it! What I don’t usually like are the people to whom they are attached…so I end up going for men.
But, I guess for me it comes down to the psychology of porn. Men watch porn to experience it vicariously. We like to see our surrogate (the man) um…giving it to her good? *groans at how cheesy that was* It’s why someone like Ron Jeremy made such a huge impact despite being a rather ugly man…his ginormous cock. Because we’re living vicariously through him and wishing we were the ones having sex with that woman, we want to see more virility (read: big cock, big cum shot)…which most porn watchers lack. They want to have the 9.75″ cock thicker than their wrist to (apparently) make the hot chick scream and yip like a demented poodle…yeah, I like porn, but it does make me giggle about 85-90% of the time.
Gay porn serves both roles…you like to bottom, they get a hot bottom you can see being stuffed with a fence post 9 inch cock. You like to top…you can see the hot top with the 9 inch cock tearing open sticking it to the hot little bottom. Best of both worlds? Still a tossup there for me, since I really like het porn, but gay seems to have a lot hotter guys to make it better for me overall.
But I really think (for men who like porn) it comes down to the irrational and insane penis envy thing…even if it means being jealous of the guy with the 10.25 inch cock who can’t comfortably fit in any human being and wishing you had been him when…well, certain people did certain things with him…
April 19th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
On average I find that stories about gay male characters tend to be better written than a lot of stories about lesbian characters. I can identify with a lot of what gay characters go through. That being said, I don’t find it hot either, at least not when things are described or shown in great detail.
I like stories about lesbian characters better when they are well portrayed, but that is very rarely unfortunately.
Adri S.
April 20th, 2008 at 12:16 am
Hrm… I never liked gay porn, but I read lots of stories about gay men. Mostly, I think it’s because there’s an edge of equality to these stories that you can’t find in lesbian or hetero stories. In most of the stories I read, the female character was “seduced against her will” or “gave in to her sexual demons” or whatever. It’s never a conscious choice on her part of, “I like this guy, and therefore we should have sex.” It’s more the guy leading her down a path she never considered.
With most stories about gay characters, both men mutually agree to continue the relationship. Maybe one agrees more readily than another, but it’s never a matter of one of them making the decision and forcing the other into it with his seductive and irresistible prick, or whatever it is we’re supposed to believe with hetero stories.
Besides that, I hate female characters. They’re always portrayed as being indecisive and pathetic, or unattractive because they refuse to act pathetic.
April 20th, 2008 at 6:12 am
I agree with Tone. Also, I hear enough about het relationships (usually sounding highly unromantic and unpleasant) at school to make it lose any appeal (I’m at an all-girls school, so it’s a hotbed of sexual frustration and sluttitude, and also gossip), so gay/lesbian stuff (usually fanfic, tbh, I have no social life) is generally what I end up reading. I used too many brackets in that sentence.
April 20th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
First of all: OMG PENGUINS!!! cutest thing in the known universe (and cookie dough icecream is my favourite flavour in the entire universe!!) I jumped for joy when I saw my little Pingu-thing!! Thank-you!!
*coughs nervously* Now that’s it out of the way…
To answer your question, it’s a matter of sensuality for me, and as aforementioned guys can’t fake it…I’ve always thought hardcore porn, be it het or gay has always been lame but the fanfiction (the good ones out there among the truckloads of crap) are so worthwhile because it’s believable.
The original intent of Yaoi was meant for women who were limited in social status because of gender inequalities in Japan. They drew the pretty, “bishounen” as a means of expressing what they never could whether it be in the working place or wherever. Hence the aesthetic drawings, the exaggerated dialogue and the lovey-sappy-ness seme/uke that comes with yaoi.
Of course, that genre is at times, taken too far (Lube? What lube?!)
I suppose that it’s all a matter of taste though.
Peace, love and chocolate chip cookie dough! (icecream…Mmm)
April 21st, 2008 at 4:26 pm
My “porn” is strictly limited to NC-17 slash fan fiction. I’m not into femslash too much because there’s too much of a tendency towards domestic fiction. Male characters have interests outside homemaking and little kids.
Frankly, male characters are just more interesting. Any time a strong female character comes along, het fan fiction writers insist on weakening her and turning her into the little woman. (This is the reason I despise Sam/Jack fan fiction in the Stargate fandom). Femslash isn’t quite so bad, but there is still a softening of the characters. (I understand that might not be the case with Xena/Danielle, but I never got into that particular fandom).
I notice, too, that slash writers tend to be older and have a far better command of grammar, punctuation and spelling. It’s a pleasure reading a story that is at least semi-literate. They also tend to stay more true to the characters instead of turning them into fangirl caricatures.
My favorite pairings, Jack/Daniel in Stargate SG-1 and Jack/Nathan in Eureka, are often snarky with one another in canon for all their friendship (in J/D’s case; I’m not quite sure I’d call Jack and Nathan friends just yet although they’re heading that way), so it cuts into the saccharine content of fan fiction considerably when they’re written true to character. They care and aren’t afraid to show they care, but they’re not over the top about it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I think it comes down to an interest in that which is “other” that a lot of people tend to have, I know I do. Especially in lesbians and bisexual women in long-term relationships with woman, the man really does become “other” and therefore “more interesting”.
Also, we know exactly what relationships with women are like, It’s fun to explore the opposite. People just like exploring the opposite, I guess.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I don’t tend to watch or read a lot of porn, but I don’t think I have a preference as to which type. Sometimes I’m fascinated by the male equipment just because I don’t see it daily. Frankly, I don’t know how you ever manage to leave the house, what with your sexual organs being so easily accessible.
April 25th, 2008 at 5:36 am
I’m a straight girl, chiming in.
A very small part of my attraction to M/M pairings have to do with the obvious attraction factor. I cute guys, and two are better than one.
A deeper attraction is from the intimacy of the situation. Most men are encouraged not to show their emotions. Even when they express affection for their friends, they do it through a hearty slap on the back, not a heartfelt conversation or a tender hug. So when two guys can be totally vulnerable to each other, there’s something special there, even more than when a guy is vulnerable to a girl. I guess for some gay guys it’s no big deal to be affectionate with friends. But there’s still a significantly large quantiny of repressed male affection in society. And things that are repressed or kept from us are what we tend to crave. (Maybe it’s like craving bananas if your diet is lacking in potassium.)
Another, more subversive, reason that women enjoy gay stories may have something to do with the fact that we’re tired of being sex objects and want our own chance to objectify somebody else. So, why can’t we objectify a man in a straight relationship? Most straight couples on tv are depicted with the female as being the object of desire, *especially* during love scenes. When there are no women, the story is forced to acknowlege that the men are objects of sexual desire.
As others have said, the quality of characters makes a difference too. If the female character is the token space receptionist, like Uhura, I’m not going to identify with her much, so I won’t be interested in her romances. I’ll identify with an interesting guy like Kirk. But I’ll be attracted to Spock… so, in my mind, Kirk is now attracted to Spock.
April 28th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
That’s not necessarily true, there are straight men that are into gay porn and also straight women that are into gay porn. (or so I have been told.) *ahem* Anyway, I think, whether people, no matter what their preference, is into watching porn of any variety. They just get embarrassed when they are confronted about it.
April 28th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Slightly bi-curious chiming in here.
I think what you watch has a lot to do with fantasy. Would you like to be with two women? Two men? Even if you’re watching two men, the subconscious (or conscious) ‘I wish I had two men with me at once’ could be satisfied. At least a little bit.
I think I’d go for lesbian porn before gay porn, to be honest. But then again, that could be the ‘curious’ in me wanting to somehow satisfy the fantasy.
April 28th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Anyone who wants to be with two of anything probably hasn’t tried it yet. It seems erotic at first, but then the logistics of maneuverability and making sure everyone is satisfied get downright hilarious.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
I think the “everyone being satisfied” part doesn’t fit into most people’s fantasies. It’s more like, “Oh, I wish I had two men/women here to satisfy ME.”
April 28th, 2008 at 10:00 pm